Recent comments in /f/history

marketrent OP t1_janqhaw wrote

Findings in title quoted from the linked^1 and hyperlinked^2 content.

From the linked summary:^1

>In 2011, Bryde’s whales in the Gulf of Thailand were first observed at the surface of the water with their jaws open at right angles, waiting for fish to swim into their mouths.

>Scientists termed the unusual technique, then unknown to modern science, as “tread-water feeding”.

>Around the same time, similar behaviour was spotted in humpback whales off Canada’s Vancouver Island, which researchers called “trap-feeding”.

>In both behaviours the whale positions itself vertically in the water, with only the tip of its snout and jaw protuding from the surface.

>Key to the technique’s success, scientists believe, is that fish instinctively shoal toward the apparent shelter of the whale’s mouths.

>Flinders University scholars now believe they have identified multiple descriptions of the behaviour in ancient texts, the earliest appearing in the Physiologus – the Naturalist – a Greek manuscript compiled in Alexandria around 150-200CE.

> 

>In the Naturalist – a 2,000-year-old text that “preserves zoological information brought to Egypt from India and the Middle East by early natural historians like Herodotus, Ctesias, Aristotle and Plutarch” – the ancient Greeks referred to the creature as aspidochelone.

>Dr John McCarthy, a maritime archaeologist at Flinders University in Adelaide, South Australia, and the study’s lead author, made the discovery while reading Norse mythology, about a year after he had seen a video of a whale tread-water feeding.

>He noted that accounts of a sea creature known as hafgufa seemed to describe the feeding behaviour.

>The most detailed description appeared in a mid-13th-century Old Norse text known as Konungs skuggsjá – the King’s Mirror. It reads:

>>“When it goes to feed … the big fish keeps its mouth open for a time, no more or less wide than a large sound or fjord, and unknowing and unheeding, the fish rush in in their numbers. And when its belly and mouth are full, [the hafgufa] closes its mouth, thus catching and hiding inside it all the prey that had come seeking food.”

>The researchers noted: “Definitive proof for the origins of myths is exceedingly rare and often impossible, but the parallels here are far more striking and persistent than any previous suggestions.”

^1 Ancient texts shed new light on mysterious whale behaviour that ‘captured imagination’, Donna Lu for The Guardian, 28 Feb. 2023, https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/01/ancient-texts-power-new-light-shed-on-mysterious-whale-behaviour-that-captured-imagination

^2 McCarthy, J., Sebo, E., and Firth, M. Parallels for cetacean trap feeding and tread-water feeding in the historical record across two millennia. Marine Mammal Science 2023. https://doi.org/10.1111/mms.13009

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badwolfdad t1_jamjgfn wrote

Here is my larger question. My wife is a historian. Dual PHDs her specialty is Medieval European History and Literature. She reads at a functional level Latin, Greek, French, German, Portuguese, and Russian. She is one of the most brilliant humans I have ever met. In the 10 years she went from HS to 2 PHDs and the 20 years of experience since as a historian and conservationist, she has never mentioned any of this. Not once. It sees to only exist in today’s world among todays gender questions. Are we not a little conceited to assume and insert our beliefs into the writings of long dead people? Does their own intent and the messages they wanted to convey to their audience matter? Just a humble man’s thoughts.

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LaCaffeinata t1_jam2872 wrote

Various languages apply grammatical gender to all nouns (German among them, Dutch has two grammatical genders for nouns, certainly a number of other languages). in some languages you can also change the grammatical gender ofa noun with a prefix or suffix, and that is when things become interesting. ^^

(For example: "der Autor/die Autorin" = the (male/female) writer.)

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LateInTheAfternoon t1_jalvomv wrote

Are you thinking of queen Margret? She was technically neither king nor queen of Sweden, only regent (apart from the time she and her husband were king and queen of Sweden for a brief period around 1360). Her son and later her grand nephew were the kings, and she was a regent during their minorities (and beyond in the case of Eric of Pomerania). To your point, however, her position as regent was nevertheless most commonly refered to by a male word: "husbonde".

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arjitraj_ OP t1_jal89nc wrote

Hey, you can just click "continue reading", which is just below the subscribe button and read it without making any account. The complete article and all the articles can be read without needing to make any account.

Account would be needed only if you wish to get notified for future posts. Just for reading, no account is needed. I hope it clears.

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Bentresh t1_jakd353 wrote

> Regarding historic texts, the only thing that comes to mind is the case of Teuta in Polybius who still is referred to with the masculine title of Basileus (βασιλεύς) .

The Egyptian ruler Hatshepsut is another example. Although often referred to today as a queen – that is, a queen regnant – she in fact used the traditional Egyptian word for king (nswt, 𓇓𓏏𓈖). There was not an independent term for "queen" in Egyptian; the title usually translated as such (ḥmt-nswt, 𓈞𓏏𓇓) literally means "wife of the king," and Hatshepsut obviously could not be her own wife.

Additionally, texts from Hatshepsut's reign use both the 3rd singular masculine suffix pronoun (=f) and 3rd singular feminine suffix pronoun (=s) to refer to Hatshepsut, with some inscriptions even switching back and forth between the two. It remains unclear how much of this was intentional and how much was scribal error.

I'll also note that some ancient languages do not distinguish between masculine and feminine but rather animate and inanimate (e.g. Sumerian and Hittite). For example, whether one translates Sumerian lugal.ani as "his king" or "her king" depends on the context – which is unfortunately not always clear, particularly with fragmentary texts.

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MeatballDom OP t1_jakd1r8 wrote

That's not really a good example: what gender is κύκνος, ταῦρος, and Ζεύς?

Edit: anyone downvoting want to tell me? Bueller?

Edit 2: Gonna have to explain this. Yes, yes it does have a gender. Everything has a gender in Ancient Greek. The swan, the bull, the Zeus, purple, Greece itself, sandals; it all has gender, and it's all important and vital to constructing a sentence in the language. This is stuff that you'll learn at the very beginning of Greek studies. It doesn't change because those are all three already masculine, the issue occurs when things that aren't already masculine or already feminine mix with those that are, as detailed well in the article.

If that's not understood you might have trouble understanding the article, but it's silly to call it stupid if you don't understand the argument.

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