Recent comments in /f/history

War_Hymn OP t1_iv31ip5 wrote

>I think some people are mistranslating the term for indentured servitude in the Qing and Ming laws as "chattel slavery".

I understand indentured servitude to be: a contract of specified time or monetary amount in which an individual is to work for the contract holder until their obligations are fulfilled. I do know that there was a large segment of indentured workers in China up to the modern era - but are these really the same "slaves" being referenced by the translated Qing legal code? I would think indentured workers had some fundamental rights, like the right to marry (as was the case in Europe and colonial Americas).

Under the Qing legal code, the "slaves" were prohibited from marrying, even with permission from their masters. The "slaves" were also prohibited from misrepresenting themselves as freedmen or "honourable persons" (which I take to mean ordinary citizens). Penalties for injuring or kidnapping a "slave" are also reduced compare to committing same acts on an ordinary citizen. In turn, certain crimes committed by "slaves" have increased penalties relative to an ordinary citizen. These "slaves" as referenced seem to be inherently treated as second class subjects by the Qing legal system.

Could Qing indentured workers or slaves be sold or traded at will by their masters? Were their children born free or become indentured/enslaved themselves?

Thanks for commenting :).

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TheeEssFo t1_iv2uieg wrote

But not when compared to Italy. A Bavarian didn't look at a Dortmunder like an inferior race the way a Milano did and does think of a Sicilian. A Bavarian would recognize a Dortmunder as a German. Divisions in Germany were religious (Protestant North vs. Catholic South) and economic (the North industrialized earlier than the south). The peasants were mostly illiterate and knew nothing of one another. The educated classes had the philosophy that unification would elevate the whole of the German people who, without a state, were (in their words of the time) otherwise no different than the Jews.

The Italians were throwing off the yoke of an alien culture (the Austrians) and the north effectively conquered the south.

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Lord0fHats t1_iv2te66 wrote

This.

It's worth noting that while Germany was not 'unified' until the 19th century, the regions of Germany had long histories together both of war and cooperation and political connection. The Holy Roman Empire had a long history and its final phases were integral to the formation of Germany.

It's not that Germany was more unified exactly, so much that Germany came into being with a history that made unification into a nation state a smoother process.

Italy in contrast had a long history of division, factional regionalism, and was rapidly unified without that same history of cooperation and political partnership. Its history of distinct and independent city states, dukedoms, and kingdoms didn't carry the same experience of working together into modern Italy like modern Germany.

I guess we could say Germany was more unified, but I think that boils the history down a bit too much.

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TheeEssFo t1_iv2s6tm wrote

I can go with this. Germans were by no means homogenized, but they were more than the Italian states. Divisions in Germany today tend to be the prosperous West vs. the still re-emerging East. In Italy, there's outright racism directed toward southerners. Italy is more like the former Yugoslavia.

Plus, while both Italy and Germany were ruled by the Holy Roman Empire, the transfer to a more Austria-based kingdom would have been less severe to the Germans than the Italians, who would have felt driven to unite in order to remove an invading alien culture as opposed to Germans just wanting statehood. Maybe. I wasn't actually there.

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tyriet t1_iv2qcbj wrote

It's because it actually does and did have the same Problems, but they were less felt and viewed as less of a Problem. A person from North Germany and one from far east or south will have trouble understanding one another if they speak dialect.

The political structures that emerged were fundamentally different though, Germany in both its modern form and its 1871 form is a Federal State (and in the German Empire the States even had their own armies), whilst Italy is not, and has never been. (A result of the two States formation history)

Italy was unified by Force by Garibaldi and the House of Savoy, in a manner of mixed coup and conquest, but significantly unlike Germany, which whilst having a war for hegemony, ultimately formed by consensus.

As such, the cultural polarisation of "these people are enforcing their will on us" - i.e. North Italy (remember the King was from the House of Savoia in the North) over South Italy was more significantly felt. Whereas in Germany, the regions were at least somewhat represented.

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jimmymd77 t1_iv2p7si wrote

I would note that Italy also had a an influx of different peoples in the wake of the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Obviously there were goths, but also Lombards that moved into the north.

I would also point out that trade made many aristocratic families and their corresponding cities crazy wealthy without the corresponding land and population. Their long links to the Mediterranean allowed them to develop monopolies with Eastern trade as the gateway to the Catholic west. This is probably why mercenaries were so popular - money, but not a lot of foot soldiers. This might be how they could stay divided as long as they did, and not conquered by someone else. It also made them rivals and emphasized some of their local culture as a matter of pride.

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