Recent comments in /f/history
[deleted] t1_iykskp5 wrote
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Bentresh t1_iyks1q3 wrote
Reply to comment by [deleted] in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
Long distance trade declined toward the end of the Late Bronze Age — and in the Early/Middle Iron Age was increasingly carried out by private merchants rather than state-sponsored expeditions — but continued nonetheless. Imported materials like lapis and tin were still available and used in the Early Iron Age.
To quote Sarah Murray’s The Collapse of the Mycenaean Economy (2017),
>Snodgrass originally argued that the use of bronze in Greece decreased after the LBA because the supply of tin, which must have been brought to Greece from far away to the East or North, was cut off at the end of the Bronze Age, forcing Greeks to find a new metal from which to make their tools and weapons. According to this bronze shortage theory, trade routes bringing copper and tin to Greece broke down just after some areas of Greece had learned the art of ironworking from Cyprus. When they could no longer obtain copper and tin, Greeks turned their metallurgical attention to forging iron (in places like Euboea where they had learned how to do it) or to the recycling of old Mycenaean bronzes (in places like West Greece where they had not). Bronze became more abundant again when trade with the east was reestablished around 900.
>This theory has been controversial. Morris questioned the bronze shortage hypothesis on the grounds that it draws too simple a connection between deliberately deposited metal artifacts and originally circulating quantities of metal. He argued that the prominence of iron in burial assemblages during the EIA reflects new social strategies that were put into place by an emergent elite that used a different metal to set itself apart within society. In this view, the use of iron for tools and jewelry was not the outcome of need generated by the lack of a preferable metal, bronze. Rather, changes in the socially determined meaning of metals led to different types of deliberate deposition, which is what we see in the archaeological record. We might also imagine that as iron became more common in the PG period, demand for bronze would have declined, because metal made from a local ore had replaced many uses of the old exogenous resource. In any case, the notion that tin was in short supply in the EIA has found little support from analyses of bronze objects, which have normal to high tin contents. Snodgrass has now stepped back from his original position, and most scholars have followed suit, questioning just how much access to tin waned…
Painting_Agency t1_iykp7xd wrote
Reply to comment by NO_NOT_THE_WHIP in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
Schliemann's excavations at Troy were the first case that we learned about in my survey-level archeology course at university. Was he an excellent archaeologist? No. Was he better than most the people at the time who just dug things up and washed them off and sold them? Yes (although he also did that).
runliftcount t1_iykov3g wrote
Reply to comment by Chopper_x in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
That's simply amazing
Painting_Agency t1_iykoamz wrote
Reply to comment by runespider in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
"I raised him better than that!"
ElChupatigre t1_iykj326 wrote
Reply to comment by PolymerSledge in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
Yep dude more than likely found it and then proceeded to blow it and several other layers of interest up with dynamite
pass_nthru t1_iykhcif wrote
Reply to comment by Fatshortstack in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
yes, and by way of trade networks made it all the way to the mediterranean to make bronze
Fatshortstack t1_iykh8c2 wrote
Reply to comment by pass_nthru in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
I thought that Uzbekistan and Afghanistan is where the tin was coming from?
[deleted] t1_iykeqpw wrote
Reply to comment by valentc in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
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Ass_feldspar t1_iykeinz wrote
Reply to comment by Better-Ambassador738 in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
I think they preferred traveling by boat.
cliff99 t1_iykds7d wrote
Reply to comment by NO_NOT_THE_WHIP in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
It might be a little out of date but there's a great documentary called In Search Of Troy that's still worth watching.
EDIT: doh, it's In Search of the Trojan War. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbUQKyie_w
BalderSion t1_iykadsb wrote
Reply to comment by BodolftheGnome in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
As I understand it, a key way to differentiate a neanderthal camp from a homo sapien camp is the the neanderthals only have locally sourced materials and homo sapiens have goods from all over Eurasia.
gwaydms t1_iyk9b5r wrote
Reply to comment by LibrarianWithNoJams in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
The level that Schliemann declared to be the one associated with the events in the Iliad was, in fact, a lot older than the Mycenean era, during which the Trojan War would have taken place.
[deleted] t1_iyk93t9 wrote
Reply to comment by pass_nthru in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
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[deleted] t1_iyk75i6 wrote
Reply to comment by KAISAHfx in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
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KAISAHfx t1_iyk5fpe wrote
Troy? or a city we think may have been Troy there's so much conjecture around this but we just keep calling it troy
Breakfest-burrito t1_iyk5805 wrote
Reply to comment by Bentresh in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
For a second I had to quickly scroll up halfway through your comment to see if we were going to end up with mankind getting thrown off the cage in the "hell in the cell" match
runespider t1_iyk3sbj wrote
Reply to comment by Wurm42 in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
We know that that kings would send gifts of gold to each other which would be melted down and repurposed. We have a letter to Ahkenaten's mom complaining about some fake gold statues sent by Ahkenaten
[deleted] t1_iyk3ivm wrote
Reply to comment by Bentresh in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
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PolymerSledge t1_iyk1970 wrote
Reply to comment by LibrarianWithNoJams in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
Ah, thanks.
Wurm42 t1_iyk0s0q wrote
Reply to comment by Better-Ambassador738 in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
The goods travel farther than any one trader. Valuable items like gold might change hands many times before they reach their final buyer.
Bentresh t1_iyk0cnt wrote
Reply to comment by pass_nthru in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
I’ll add that materials like tin and lapis lazuli were not the products of direct trade between the eastern Mediterranean and central Asia; they were passed along by a series of middlemen. For example, the Mycenaeans obtained amber from people in central Europe, who acquired it from the Baltic, ostrich feathers and eggshells from the Egyptians, who got them from Nubia, and so on. Tin would’ve been imported to Mesopotamia from states further east like Elam (in what is now Iran), which acquired it from the city-states of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (awkwardly named, I know) in what is now Turkmenistan and parts of Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan.
This is very different from the direct trade between regions via donkey caravans or ships — the Old Assyrian trade between Anatolia and the Assyrian city of Aššur, the 3rd/2nd millennium BCE trade between southern Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley Civilization, the trade expeditions between Egypt and the Horn of Africa, etc.
[deleted] t1_iyjyv5t wrote
Reply to comment by NO_NOT_THE_WHIP in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
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LibrarianWithNoJams t1_iyjxubc wrote
Reply to comment by PolymerSledge in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
You're right in thinking of the city, it's just widely assumed that the site in Hisarlik corresponds to the Troy from the Trojan War. It's not 100% confirmed though, but fairly well accepted.
DaddyCatALSO t1_iyksqp3 wrote
Reply to comment by [deleted] in Gold from ancient Troy, Poliochni and Ur had the same origin by IslandChillin
I've read (in the Penguin atlas of ancient history, the Sumerians lost access to tin at one point and fell temporarily back into the Chalcolithic.)