And that price doesn’t include the middlebury tunnel project as they got that funded through vtrans

Generally, for trains, "if you build it, they will come" seems to apply. In my opinion, improving buses (and mostly making people aware of how and when buses are actually running - most of the problem with buses is the advertising and ease of use) and certainly increasing bike lanes will be the most cost-effective. However, I definitely need to get more involved in the planning aspect!

That $26 million price tag is disingenuous in this conversation as it does not include the cost of the middlebury tunnel project. Some of your other proposed improvements are ludicrous. Rd-Wj will never happen. No existing right of way and very heavy grade territory especially if you want a stop at the top of Killington. You will never be able to secure funding for that project when there is already an existing route RD-BF-Wj. And none of this is going to work with existing freight service on these lines. For viable commuter rail on any of the existing lines you would need considerable amount of double main track installed or a lot more passing sidings (not filled with storage cars).

Edit: it’s the same reason why All Earth Rail failed. Blittersdorf bought a bunch of passenger cars without any thought of how or when or where they would operate and how the existing railroads operate. He wanted to run passenger service between Montpelier and barre… Dangerous heavy grade territory that is FRA excepted (illegal to run passenger service on).

BF/Rut largely exists but needs upgrades. Rut/WRJ does not exist and would be very difficult to implement, but the corridor frankly sucks by car and so I really wish we did have the funds to make it happen. Albany to Concord carries the same reasoning as Rutland to WRJ - it's difficult to get from west to east in New England. Those lines would be more long-term...

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. As someone who both enjoys trains and wants to see them (and Vermont) thrive, my foremost goal is to improve upon what we have so far, and part of the reason why I put my idea out into the world in the first place is so I could understand its shortcomings. Your criticisms make a lot of sense. I just hope that people in Vermont aren't too afraid to dream a little bigger when it comes to transit.

One of the things that makes it a relatively cheap service to operate is running it essentially as an extension of an Albany-terminating NY Empire Service schedule - and that gets NY to pay the subsidy for the NY portion of the run, not VT.

The problem with that is, you can only get away with doing that cheaply with timeslots that work for NY + operational considerations.

What they're currently doing is taking advantage of the overnight to reduce the amount of additional equipment/crew that has to be dedicated to make the service happen.

If you wanted an earlier northbound train, there are two problems:

• There's not much in the schedule to work with - the only Albany-terminating train that's earlier is 3hrs earlier. Still not much of a day trip if you get in at 5pm. The earlier trains are heading West after Albany.

• It'd likely be sitting idle for more hours that a train is usually operating. If the Northbound train pulls into Burlington at 5pm, now it's stuck there for the night given the >7hr running time to NYC.

If the train had spent the same amount of time as a Southbound to NYC from Albany and pulls into NYC at 5pm, it'd likely be headed out for at least one more service that night.

The current time-slot with a 10PM Burlington arrival + 10AM departure allows pretty full utilization of the "normal" travel hours with minimal down-time. 12hrs off probably also means they've only got a single crew to have to lodge overnight/pay.

If the service got faster, more possibilities would potentially open up for better scheduling.

The other point is that all or most of the existing service is really tailored towards longer-distance travel. This makes sense for a very infrequent train - you're more likely to tailor your schedule to the train when it's already going to be a "big trip" occupying much of the day, and timings on the NYC end of the train are pretty ideal for maximum traveler appeal with a 2:19PM NB departure/5:46PM SB arrival.

I'd love to see it too!

Woooowzah

That's true! (Also needs to be added to Apple Maps if frequency is made regular.)

Other than the Stowe line, I don't see how?

Heavy rail baby

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I agree that the Vermonter to Montreal is the top priority for now, but it is unfortunate to hear the setbacks that exist to upgrading frequency. Hopefully they can be overcome in the future!

Doesn't mean it's bad...just pour it into a pot, skim the mold, boil, and pour back into a jar.

Lots of what I suggested has already been built, just needs to be revitalized and upgraded.

Amtrak has it on their website as a planned expansion!

No WRJ-STJ was a huge oversight by me, hahaha. But yes, that is why the purple line does the jag.

Using it in coffee seems like a bit of a luxury but I I love it. Even better in lattes. I usually make about 3 gallons a year and it's enough to supply all my gluttonous desires.

The most practical you’ll see is St Albans to Montreal.

However, the East Alburg bridge stands in the way. Freight crawls over it. A new bridge is easily 15 years-out. Current steel work and the volume of wood on this years plan isn’t even keeping up with its state.

New York wouldn’t want to stop Amtrak into Whitehall, state of vermont is pitching in funds for cwr in the fair haven area to replaced some badly warn jointed (105 I think) rail.

What do you see as the most likely upgrade in local resources , to make getting around w/out one's personal vehicle feasible once at your destination?

I can see the ski slopes and major hotels/upscale bnb's/breweries running shuttles, but what about "normal" towns?

Good train platform - to residence - to attractions - to trailheads options don't exist yet on any meaningful, dependable scale - what's being discussed at the planning level?

I never used it in my coffee but when I brine pork chops, I substitute brown sugar with maple syrup and it's fantastic.

Putting in a wood stove at my house used 110 less gallons of fuel compared. to last year with no stove and after deducting wood usage for the month it came about to $280 in savings last month.

How likely is the Montreal extension, and how soon?

I'd be SO freaking happy to see it in my lifetime.

As someone who is proponent of more passenger rail, I really want to like this idea.

There are a few issues that will need to be overcome. Unfortunately they will be very hard.

To start I actually work in the rail industry in the state. The biggest hurdle would be getting freight companies to actually go along with such a proposal. The NECR for example hosts The Vermonter from St. Albans to East Northfield. Currently the NECR does not need to implement PTC or positive train control in its locomotives. If you were to increase the frequency of passenger trains from the current two per day, PTC would need to be installed. Freight railroads are not going to want to pay to install PTC, it's expensive and can take years to implement properly.

This leads into the next point. When you add more train frequencies you have to have places to put freight trains in order to make train meets. Typically a passenger train holds the main while a freight train takes the siding. For larger freight trains this can be time consuming and actually limits where a train can go. So you can expand current railroad sidings , add new ones , or implement controlled switch sidings. All of the above cost lots of money. Which again a short line railroad like the NECR does not have the money to implement nor do I think they would want to.

I think continuing to support the expansion of The Vermonter into Montreal is still our best bet for now.

I see you've chosen to avoid resurrecting the Thirty Six Miles Of Trouble. :)

Any reason to believe either the BF/Rut or Rut/WRJ won't also be a bit of a PITA?

And holy cats, that yellow line from Albany to Concord - we thinking tunnels outside of Wilmington?

Their aren't that many, look at amtrak, it goes to NYC and DC, they drive. Rich people don't use mass transit