AutoModerator

AutoModerator OP t1_j9oe5qu wrote

Reply to comment by dai_rip in Bookclub and Sources Wednesday! by AutoModerator

Hi!

It looks like you are talking about the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond.

The book over the past years has become rather popular, which is hardly surprising since it is a good and entertaining read. It has reached the point that for some people it has sort of reached the status of gospel. On /r/history we noticed a trend where every time a question was asked that has even the slightest relation to the book a dozen or so people would jump in and recommend the book. Which in the context of history is a bit problematic and the reason this reply was written.

Why it is problematic can be broken down into two reasons:

  1. In academic history there isn't such thing as one definitive authority or work on things. There are often others who research the same subjects and people that dive into work of others to build on it or to see if it indeed holds up. This being critical of your sources and not relying on one source is actually a very important skill in studying history often lacking when dozens of people just spam the same work over and over again as a definite guide and answer to "everything".
  2. There are a good amount of modern historians and anthropologists who are quite critical of Guns, Germs, and Steel and there are some very real issues with Diamond's work. These issues are often overlooked or not noticed by the people reading his book. Which is understandable, given the fact that for many it will be their first exposure to the subject. Considering the popularity of the book it is also the reason that we felt it was needed to create this response.

In an ideal world, every time the book was posted in /r/history, it would be accompanied by critical notes and other works covering the same subject. Lacking that a dozen other people would quickly respond and do the same. But simply put, that isn't always going to happen and as a result, we have created this response so people can be made aware of these things. Does this mean that the /r/history mods hate the book or Diamond himself? No, if that was the case, we would simply instruct the bot to remove every mention of it. This is just an attempt to bring some balance to a conversation that in popular history had become a bit unbalanced. It should also be noted that being critical of someone's work isn't the same as outright dismissing it. Historians are always critical of any work they examine, that is part of their core skill set and key in doing good research.

Below you'll find a list of other works covering much of the same subject. Further below you'll find an explanation of why many historians and anthropologists are critical of Diamonds work.

Other works covering the same and similar subjects.

Criticism of Guns, Germs, and Steel

Many historians and anthropologists believe Diamond plays fast and loose with history by generalizing highly complex topics to provide an ecological/geographical determinist view of human history. There is a reason historians avoid grand theories of human history: those "just so stories" don't adequately explain human history. It's true however that it is an entertaining introductory text that forces people to look at world history from a different vantage point. That being said, Diamond writes a rather oversimplified narrative that seemingly ignores the human element of history.

Cherry-picked data while ignoring the complexity of issues

In his chapter "Lethal Gift of Livestock" on the origin of human crowd infections he picks 5 pathogens that best support his idea of domestic origins. However, when diving into the genetic and historic data, only two pathogens (maybe influenza and most likely measles) could possibly have jumped to humans through domestication. The majority were already a part of the human disease load before the origin of agriculture, domestication, and sedentary population centers. This is an example of Diamond ignoring the evidence that didn't support his theory to explain conquest via disease spread to immunologically naive Native Americas.

A similar case of cherry-picking history is seen when discussing the conquest of the Inca.

> Pizarro's military advantages lay in the Spaniards' steel swords and other weapons, steel armor, guns, and horses... Such imbalances of equipment were decisive in innumerable other confrontations of Europeans with Native Americans and other peoples. The sole Native Americans able to resist European conquest for many centuries were those tribes that reduced the military disparity by acquiring and mastering both guns and horses.

This is a very broad generalization that effectively makes it false. Conquest was not a simple matter of conquering a people, raising a Spanish flag, and calling "game over." Conquest was a constant process of negotiation, accommodation, and rebellion played out through the ebbs and flows of power over the course of centuries. Some Yucatan Maya city-states maintained independence for two hundred years after contact, were "conquered", and then immediately rebelled again. The Pueblos along the Rio Grande revolted in 1680, dislodged the Spanish for a decade, and instigated unrest that threatened the survival of the entire northern edge of the empire for decades to come. Technological "advantage", in this case guns and steel, did not automatically equate to battlefield success in the face of resistance, rough terrain and vastly superior numbers. The story was far more nuanced, and conquest was never a cut and dry issue, which in the book is not really touched upon. In the book it seems to be case of the Inka being conquered when Pizarro says they were conquered.

Uncritical examining of the historical record surrounding conquest

Being critical of the sources you come across and being aware of their context, biases and agendas is a core skill of any historian.

Pizarro, Cortez and other conquistadores were biased authors who wrote for the sole purpose of supporting/justifying their claim on the territory, riches and peoples they subdued. To do so they elaborated their own sufferings, bravery, and outstanding deeds, while minimizing the work of native allies, pure dumb luck, and good timing. If you only read their accounts you walk away thinking a handful of adventurers conquered an empire thanks to guns and steel and a smattering of germs. No historian in the last half century would be so naive to argue this generalized view of conquest, but European technological supremacy is one keystone to Diamond's thesis so he presents conquest at the hands of a handful of adventurers.

The construction of the arguments for GG&S paints Native Americans specifically, and the colonized world in general, as categorically one step behind.

To believe the narrative you need to view Native Americans as somehow naive, unable to understand Spanish motivations and desires, unable react to new weapons/military tactics, unwilling to accommodate to a changing political landscape, incapable of mounting resistance once conquered, too stupid to invent the key technological advances used against them, and doomed to die because they failed to build cities, domesticate animals and thereby acquire infectious organisms. This while they often did fare much better as suggested in the book (and the sources it tends to cite). They often did mount successful resistance, were quick to adapt to new military technologies, build sprawling citiest and much more. When viewed through this lens, we hope you can see why so many historians and anthropologists are livid that a popular writer is perpetuating a false interpretation of history while minimizing the agency of entire continents full of people.

Further reading

If you are interested in reading more about what others think of Diamon's book you can give these resources a go:

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

4

AutoModerator t1_j9odnv3 wrote

Reply to The ents are marching to war. by thisiscotty

>This is a friendly reminder to read our rules. > >Memes, social media, hate-speech, and pornography are not allowed. > >Screenshots of Reddit are expressly forbidden, as are TikTok videos. > >Comics may only be posted on Wednesdays and Sundays. > >Rule-breaking posts may result in bans. > >Please also be wary of spam. >

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9o5sin wrote

Reply to Brúarfoss, Iceland. {OC} (1500 x 1000 by michaelconti

Hi michaelconti! Dont worry, this message does not mean that your post is removed. This is a reminder to quickly check your post to make sure it doesnt break any of our rules. Human moderators check the following --

Thanks!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9o5a7n wrote

Reply to FDNY wants to up the cost of ambulance rides by more than 50% by NYY657545

Users often report submissions from this site and ask us to ban it for sensationalized articles. At /r/nyc, we oppose blanket banning any news source. Readers have a >responsibility to be skeptical, check sources and comment on any flaws. You can help improve this thread by linking to media that verifies or questions this article's claims. Your link could help readers better understand this issue. If you do find >evidence that this article or its title are false or misleading, contact the moderators who will review it.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9o59z6 wrote

Reply to Upgraded from Galaxy to iPhone; Missing the back gesture so much. by lucinaiscool

It looks like you might be posting about buying, upgrading, or trade-in, in which case you should comment in the pinned WSIB thread. This post has been filtered for review, and may be removed.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

−2

AutoModerator t1_j9o45el wrote

Reply to [WP]For centuries, the moon was a barren rock. But one day, it transformed into a lush, habitable world. The sudden change shocked humanity, and they scrambled to investigate. But just as quickly as it appeared, the moon reversed back to its original form, leaving scientists puzzled by Armadillo_Signal

Welcome to the Prompt! All top-level comments must be a story or poem. Reply here for other comments.

Reminders:

>* No AI-generated reponses 🤖 >* Stories 100 words+. Poems 30+ but include "[Poem]" >* Responses don't have to fulfill every detail >* [RF] and [SP] for stricter titles >* Be civil in any feedback and follow the rules

🆕 New Here? ✏ Writing Help? 📢 News 💬 Discord

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9o30ar wrote

Reply to Research suggests that school-based physical activity intervention, by way of increasing physical exercise classes to daily during school, is successful in reducing childhood obesity. Scientists found that obesity was reversed after 3 years. by Wagamaga

Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our normal comment rules apply to all other comments.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9o2hoe wrote

Reply to [CW] Flash Fiction Challenge: A Cathedral and a Drone by Cody_Fox23

Welcome to the Prompt! All top-level comments must be a story or poem. Reply here for other comments.

Reminders:

>* No AI-generated reponses 🤖 >* Stories 100 words+. Poems 30+ but include "[Poem]" >* Responses don't have to fulfill every detail >* [RF] and [SP] for stricter titles >* Be civil in any feedback and follow the rules

🆕 New Here? ✏ Writing Help? 📢 News 💬 Discord

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9o0ows wrote

Reply to Social work marginalises autistic children and their mothers leading to poor outcomes by RassimoFlom

Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our normal comment rules apply to all other comments.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9nqfzm wrote

Reply to Lightning Strike in the Blue Mountains in New South Wales, Australia [OC] [1080x1350] by steven_sandner

Hi steven_sandner! Dont worry, this message does not mean that your post is removed. This is a reminder to quickly check your post to make sure it doesnt break any of our rules. Human moderators check the following --

Thanks!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9nifnq wrote

Reply to Aircraft noise exposure before myocardial infarction substantially amplifies subsequent cardiovascular inflammation and aggravates ischaemic heart failure, facilitated by a pro-inflammatory vascular conditioning by giuliomagnifico

Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our normal comment rules apply to all other comments.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9nfkkb wrote

Reply to comment by Yeti_Poet in Calling all New England Sports fans: consider giving rugby a chance! by xcaughta

Excuse me there tourist, you must not be familiar with the port city of Boston. Nobody here says Beantown. Please enjoy this documentary about our diverse aquatic life.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

−1

AutoModerator t1_j9nc5v1 wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in Microsoft cofounder Bill Gates says the rise of AI poses a threat to Google's search engine profit by Nsaxon

Thank you for your submission, but due to the high volume of spam coming from Medium.com and similar self-publishing sites, /r/Technology has opted to filter all of those posts pending mod approval. You may [message the moderators](/message/compose?to=/r/technology&subject=Request for post review) to request a review/approval provided you are not the author or are not associated at all with the submission. Thank you for understanding.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9nb4ze wrote

Reply to Air New Zealand conducts first flight in te reo Māori by donkeychaser1

Reminder: this subreddit is meant to be a place free of excessive cynicism, negativity and bitterness. Toxic attitudes are not welcome here.

All Negative comments will be removed and will possibly result in a ban.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9n8zgv wrote

Reply to The mountains of South Island NZ [OC][6016 x 4016] by crankyape1534

Hi crankyape1534! Dont worry, this message does not mean that your post is removed. This is a reminder to quickly check your post to make sure it doesnt break any of our rules. Human moderators check the following --

Thanks!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

AutoModerator t1_j9n3l54 wrote

Reply to Wooting 60HE x Frog mini by Nix_4o4_not404

ANY content that features products, services you sell, your prototypes in progress or items you were sponsored to post MUST use the Promotional flair, with disclosure of who you represent.

When posting your build, please provide a description of the build, preferably as a Top Level Comment or Reply to this Comment, with the following information:

  • Your keyboard featured and its layout

  • The Switches, Keycaps, and Other Accessories Featured

  • Any notable mods you performed

  • Other helpful information such as low profile, lesser known firmware, etc.

Example: Unobtanium Southpaw 1800 with DSA Salt with MorningCaps Artisan and Alps Rainbow Switches, modded with Sorbothan Foam on KMK

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1